Professor Phil Uhlmann Interview

Biography: Phil Uhlmann was born in Berkeley, California, and moved to Victoria, BC, Canada in 1967. Professor Uhlmann earned his B.Comm from the University of British Columbia, his MBA from the Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto, a MSSc in International Relations from the Maxwell School, Syracuse University, and his PhD in International Relations at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, Tufts University. His 2002 doctoral dissertation, “See How They Run,” studied international banking flows around national election dates in forty developing countries.

Dr. Phil started working at the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce in 1973, right after high school. He stayed at CIBC for more than twenty-five years, working mostly in Vancouver and Toronto, excepting educational leaves of absence.  From 1992 to 1998, he was a member of CIBC’s senior executive – Vice President, Risk Management Division, Toronto - Banks, Countries and Foreign Governments. In 2003, he joined Bentley University. He has also taught at the Fletcher School, the Indian School of Business, and the Vienna University of Economics and Business.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phil-uhlmann-a818aa20/

Interview Q&A:

What sparked your interest in international finance?

My parents left Europe after WWII, so there was always discussion about international affairs at home and, by extension, finance. I started at the bank right after high school, mostly because I could not afford university.  And I was not ready to commit to my studies. My first year at CIBC was in branch banking in Victoria and Port Hardy, BC. I spent the next two years with the regional Audit and Inspection Department where I was first exposed to international finance.  We worked on audits at  the 150 bank branches in British Columbia, Seattle, and Portland. After three years, I was granted an educational leave of absence for five years.  The plan was always to study international finance and international relations. My leave included summer work was progressive from year to year. I was keenly interested in understanding the international game. When I finished my five-year Honors program in Finance, the bank placed me at a large office in Vancouver.   Every time there was anything international, I would put my hand up. I quickly had to learn about the intersections between international finance, economics, and political science.  It has been a lifetime of learning; it has never been tiresome; not for one day. 

Is banking something that you knew you wanted to go into?

Not necessarily. The bank was hiring when I finished high school, and I thought it could be a good career. The audit job allowed me to learn about the bank’s organization.  Knowing the people and how they got their jobs was a study in itself.  Understanding right from wrong, prudent management vs. sloppy administration was critical to building my career. We are all products of our training. After my undergraduate studies, I enjoyed risk management and relationship banking.  In Toronto, my work was almost entirely about risk management – credit and market risks. 

What are a couple of the most interesting stories from your career?

One that comes to mind is from April 1996. I had lunch with a Senior Vice President of Risk Management at Deutsche Bank to discuss Iran. It was just the two of us on the top floor of one of Twin Towers in Frankfurt. It was a great meeting because we both put everything on the table about our dealings in Iran; it was a time when you could still do business with Iran.  We both agreed that $100 million was enough for each bank. With export credit insurance, those limits would allow you to do $1 billion, all in. But, of course, that was 1996. CIBC’s business was mostly trade finance related, selling Canadian wheat to Iran. We thought that people in Iran ought to be able to eat, a small initiative toward world peace.

Another noteworthy meeting was breakfast in Toronto with my counterpart from the Royal Bank of Canada. We had both become concerned about the level of money market borrowing that Japanese banks were doing, mostly in New York. The Japanese banks were taking cash from us, sending it back to Tokyo, and then down-streaming it into Asian countries like Thailand before the 1997 Asian Crisis started in May 1997.  In our case, the limit was $2 billion across nineteen city banks. My counterpart was great, we agreed that it would be better if we shared information.  We put all our credit limits on the table and went through the whole list name by name. The meeting was about what was in the best interests of Canada, the two banks and all stakeholders. It is important to remember who your constituents are, common sense.      

What is a piece of advice you would give to a student who is entering your career path in banking?

Stewardship. That is a word that William Dudley used in a November 2019 paper “Strengthening Culture for the Long Term - Progress, Challenges, and the Next Generation of Leaders. Mr. Dudley is the former head of the New York FED. I use that paper when I teach Operations of Financial Institutions because his thinking is the way that we were brought up inside the bank. Largely, it is about the integrity of the right-hand side of the balance sheet, in addition to the off-balance sheet derivatives.

Why do you focus heavily on swaps in your International Finance classes? 

In the fall of 1987, I took a Corporate Finance class at the University of Toronto. Our professor tried to teach us interest rate swaps; it was still a relatively new product at the time. I made a mess of the swaps question on the final exam and, afterward, thought there had to be a better way to learn this topic – to be fair, the professor was excellent. I have worked to make presentations that students can understand, both for interest rates and currency swaps.  When I was in risk management, I saw a lot of swap lines and transactions. Swaps are derivatives of bonds and then, currencies.

Is there advice you would give someone who is trying to reach a senior role in a bank?

In February 2011, the Financial Times did an interview with Stuart Gulliver who had just taken over as CEO at Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation, a bank that had duo head offices in London and Hong Kong.  It’s a complex bank.  Mr. Gulliver was correct when he said, “You have to decide early that you want to make a run.” You can’t be timid. I decided early that I wanted to be a part of the bank’s executive and worked towards that but, perhaps, not as aggressively as I might have. I knew I had to go to Toronto or else it wouldn’t happen. To advance within a corporate structure, you need rock-solid skills, and you must have some luck. Otherwise, you won’t get far. It also helps to have a couple of godfathers keeping track of you. I was fortunate with my career at the bank, no regrets.   

Where does your interest in sports and golfing stem from? 

When I was young, I started to follow baseball and hockey on the radio; we did not have a television until I was eleven. With radio, you learn to visualize the game. It was great to listen to the games on the West Coast, that three-hour time difference helps a lot. I also read the box scores in the paper every morning.

I started playing golf in high school with my friends. We would go out casually on the weekend and in the summertime. Living on the West Coast, we had a longer golf season.  Once I started working, and then when our three children came along, it was much more difficult to get out golfing more than even once a week. In hindsight, I should have spent more time golfing and less time working. C’est la vie.  In recent years, I have been able to play more golf and visit some great golf venues, including all seven of the Trust Courses at St. Andrews, Scotland, Portrush, Northern Ireland, Banff, Canada, and all four courses at Whistler, Canada. Pebble Beach remains a bucket list course.

Out of all the places you have traveled, which is your favorite and why?

The place I would love to keep going back to is Vienna. It’s just so civilized. It’s peaceful, it's beautiful, the music is special, and the food is superb. A place, “not too far east, and not too far west.” You’re just completely comfortable.

Why do you revolve your classes around real, current news?

Well because students are going into real jobs. You’re expected to know what’s going on. The decisions that you make are going to be based on what’s happening in the markets today and tomorrow. You do have to learn the lessons of what happened years ago.  One tends to ignore history.  But at your peril. I don’t think the textbooks are great for getting you ready to work.  I also don’t think the jump-through-the-hoop and get-the-cookie approach works. I do want students to know what bond prices are and how to value bonds. Also, equities, currencies, commodities, etc. because that’s the stuff that you’re going to need to make a living. 

Start your morning with the Financial Times. I did an interview with the FT in 2023, and suggested students should start each day by reading what they find interesting. 

Of all the students that have succeeded in your class, what are some common characteristics between them?

I would say a Kobe Bryant work ethic. You need to work harder than everyone else.  It’s a commitment that you must have to succeed in your career, especially in the banking world. Be humble, you are entitled to nothing. Diplomacy counts, keep saying please and thank you.  Patience because things are not always going to go your way. Ask when you’re not sure. The doors around here are open, and we’re all happy to talk to you. Be persistent but understand that we have a lot of students, so we only have so much time. With group work, get along with your group members and do your part.  If you have to carry the team, do it – Kobe, Jordan, Brady, Papi, and Jeter to name a few.  If you’re pretending, everyone knows; you might not think so, but we do.  

What’s some advice you would give to students besides reading news to get ahead?

Have confidence and integrity. When you are in a room full of potential competitors, especially at work, you must have the confidence that you’re going to get there. You don’t need to step on people to get ahead, but you need to be focused. Everyone has good days and bad days in terms of their confidence but don’t lose sight of where it is that you want to go. And don’t give up.  Be a straight-shooter, don’t make up stories.

Do you have any advice for incoming Bentley students or those graduating from Bentley?

For incoming students, the obvious advice is to make sure you go to class. Just go. You’re not going to be at your best every day and we understand that. Listening is especially important. 

For those who are graduating, some are without jobs right now. Just calm yourself. We’ve seen this movie before. Some years are harder than others to get jobs, but you will get jobs. You’ve come to a good school and people on the street know that. 

From the beginning, develop a network. You can never have too big a network.  Stay connected. Be proactive in reaching out and identifying the key people within organizations.

What is your favorite part about being a professor?

Watching people develop. Explaining how the dots connect. I have a number of students who go through three, or even four classes with me. I follow them once they leave Bentley, and they keep in touch. Many are doing wonderful things. That is very rewarding in a quiet sort of way. It makes getting up every morning worthwhile.